103.07:Time of Origin/John

Evidence No. 7: The similarities of the events in Matthew 17:1-7 where the Apostle John was present and Revelation 1:13-18

"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:13-18 KJV)

The whole scene in Revelation 1:13-18 is something that might have reminded John of the following event that happened during Jesus' dwelling on earth, on the mountain as referred to in Matthew: "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. (Matthew 17:1-7 KJV) This is also more evidence to believe that the Apostle John, James' brother, is identical with John in the Book of Revelation. I do not believe that the similarity of events was accidentally. John could really be sure that his vision came from Jesus Himself. It is especially in the Gospel of John that he speaks of Jesus as "light", as in John 1:4-5 (KJV): "In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

103.06: Time of Origin/John

Evidence No. 6: Why was John to send the Book of Revelation to the Churches in Minor Asia and not to the Church in Jerusalem?


I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 1:9 KJV)

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In Revelation 1:9 John makes clear that he is one of the Christians, their "brother, and companion in tribulation". He also says that he was banished to the isle of Patmos because he had preached the Word of God, and for his testimony of Jesus Christ. Who else but John the Disciple could have given a better witness, he who had been at Jesus' side at the cross while all the others had run away? (cf. "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. " (John 19:25-27 KJV)

John's visions were addressed to the seven Christian churches in Minor Asia, to so-called "Heathen-Christians". If he had foreseen the fall of the Temple, this would have interested the Jews in Jerusalem more than the Christians there, because the Temple was not such an important place after Jesus' resurrection anymore for the Christians who know that God is not in the Temple anymore, but that their bodies are the Temple where God dwells in form of the Holy Spirit. Jesus ascended to Heaven and is sitting at the right hand of the Father now. He left us the Holy Spirit on earth, the third person of the Triune God, so we would never be orphans. Why should Jesus send John visions that were meant for the Jews ? It does not make any sense at all. No, the visions were for the Christians, the seven Churches which were not even near Jerusalem but in Minor Asia, and given that they stand symbolically for all the Christian churches, the fact that they were in Minor Asia makes clear that the visions were not meant for the Jews.

Another important evidence is that John did not address the Jews or Christians in Jerusalem. Why did he not warn them of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem? He obviously did not, because there were not many left, and the fall of Jerusalem had taken place already when he had his visions. John the Disciple had been one of the founders of the first church in Jerusalem. The Apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 2:9 in the years 50-57 a.d.: "And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." So John, James and Peter were to teach and pastor the Christians of Jewish origin, while Paul and Barnabas were to gain the heathens. Since they were in a close relationship with the Lord, that was not their decision but God's. So why should God tell John to preach to the Jews in Jerusalem, and then before the destruction of many there give John visions of the Temple in Jerusalem and send it to seven churches in Minor Asia, Heathen -Christian churches? The people there would have felt pity for Jerusalem, but it did not mean anything to their lives, because it was far away. Travelling was a hard thing in those times. We know that Paul had founded a number of churches in Greece, like in Ephesus or Corinth. So why would God send John the visions, and not Paul if the visions were seen before 70 a.d., before the destruction of the Temple?

There is just one logical answer to all of these questions, and that is that the Apostle John received the visions from the Lord after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and his visions did not refer to this event at all.

103.05: Time of Origin/John

Evidence No. 5: The same Wording by John in the Gospel, his Letters and in Revelation

Please read the following verse from Revelation, please keep in mind the wording in bold:

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Revelation 1:5 KJV)

Though I could find a similar wording once by another author (Paul) in the whole New Testament in the King James Version in Hebrews 11:17 ("By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son"), there is much more evidence that John who wrote Revelation and John who wrote the Gospel of John and the letters of John are identical. I could find almost the same wording in the New Testament by John several times.

Please read the evidence yourself:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16 KJV)

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18 KJV)

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. (1 John 4:9 KJV)

There is much more evidence like this in Revelation. Actually, it is striking, and not really difficult to find.

103.04: Time of Origin/John

Evidence No. 4: The same Idea of John in the Gospel and Revelation

Please pray, and then read the following verses:

"For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced." (John 19:36-37 KJV)

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
(Revelation 1:7 KJV)

John is taking up the Old Testament prophecy in Zechariah:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zechariah 12:10 KJV)

The fact that this idea turns up in John's Gospel as well as in Revelation (but not in the other three Gospels) is more evidence that the authors are identical.

103.3: Time of Origin/John

Evidence No. 3: John refers to the New Jerusalem by Name

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Revelation 21:1-5 KJV)

As you can read above, John does very concretely speak of Jerusalem when he means the future Jerusalem. He describes it precisely, in these verses as well:

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Revelation 21:10-27 KJV)

His literally mentioning of the New and future Jerusalem and precise description of the Holy City as John could see it in his vision, and his not literally mentioning the fall of the old Jerusalem or describing it in any form precisely, is another evidence that he looked upon this event as in the past from his point of view.

Another point is that if he had seen the destruction of the old Temple and of Jerusalem in 70 AD, this vision would have been of a warning character, like so many prophecies are in the Scriptures. God has never sent visions of destruction to His prophets without giving His people the chance of repentance. If Revelation had been written before 70 AD, the hope of a way out of the dilemma is missing. If the visions he describes are yet to come true, we are all told what to do to get out of the dilemma that God will destroy this place here, and that there will be a Judgment. (The topic about what we are to do if we want to be blessed is taken up following this link: 101. Addendum: Things to Do )

103.2: Time of Origin/John

Evidence No. 2

Actually the year when John wrote the Revelation to the seven churches does not really matter. Even if he wrote it before 70 AD as some people claim, it would not have changed the course of history as foretold. Some people claim he foresaw the destruction of the Herod's Temple in Jerusalem and the defeat of the Jewish rebellion against the Romans siege, but that is really very doubtful.

And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Mark 13:1-2 KJV)

This started the end time prophecy of the New Testament. Jesus life and death had fulfilled a number of Old Testament prophecies, but not all of them were fulfilled in the time between His birth and ascending into Heaven. In addition, He had already foretold the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple when on earth before it happened, and other prophets had done so, which means those events were mentioned in the Scriptures, so why not by John? There are two possible answers to this question. Either he had his visions before the fall of the Temple which he describes in Revelation. But this would have meant the end of the world, Armageddon. However, the world continued to be in existence for 1939 years. Many events which he describes in Revelation cannot be explained by that.

In addition, Jesus pointed to events that cannot be explained by the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Another much more plausible idea would be that John did not refer to past events at all and was writing after the fall of the Temple in 70 AD. There are many hints that back this up. Everybody will agree with me that John's visions described only future events from his point of view. His visions gave the hope for a New Jerusalem, while the old Jerusalem was destroyed, which John does not describe, however. He has the vision of the "New Jerusalem" in which God Himself comforted the people for their loss of Jerusalem:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Revelation 21:1-5 KJV)

The order of the events is interesting. God makes all things new. Have a look at this order, please:

Jerusalem and the Herod Temple falls. (70 AD)
Heavens and the earth will be destroyed. (yet to come)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
God makes things new, a new Heaven and a new earth first. (yet to come)
God makes a New Jerusalem where he Himself is the Temple. (yet to come)

It can be used as a very rough time frame for the prophecy in Revelation.

103.1: Time of Origin/John

I have started this addendum to collect evidence during the studies for the date when Revelation was written and for John's identity in the run of the Bible studies of the Book of Revelation.

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Evidence No. 1

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

It is the Father who is sending out his Word, Jesus Christ, which can also be regarded as evidence that John is identical with the author of the Gospel of John, which starts like this:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:1-3 KJV)

The Word was God. Jesus Christ. Sent by the Father. And it is the same here, and it becomes clear that God the Father is the one who is speaking, which is manifested in the Son by who all things are made - you and me inclusively.

The Apostle John often spoke of himself as a third person narrator like he is doing here in our verses, too. Whom else would Jesus have sent the revelations but to John the Beloved? He had told the Disciples shortly before he left them that He had not told them everything yet:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (John 16:12-13 KJV)

And He did...